#53076: "Holographic Projection didn't Turn Off at end of Turn"
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Detailed description
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• Please copy/paste the error message you see on your screen, if any.
The rules of Brain Transference is that the player's turn ends IMMEDIATELY once the card is played.
Holographic Projection is supposed to turn off at the end of a player's turn. Holographic Projection did not turn off and allowed the player to meet the win conditions with Holographic Projection.
faq.looneylabs.com/fluxx-games/star-fluxx#1343 -
• Please explains what you wanted to do, what you do and what happened
Move 57
• What is your browser?
Google Chrome v95
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• Please copy/paste the text displayed in English instead of your language. If you have a screenshot of this bug (good practice), you can use a picture hosting service of your choice (snipboard.io for example) to upload it and copy/paste the link here. Is this text available in the translation system? If yes, has it been translated for more than 24 hours?
The rules of Brain Transference is that the player's turn ends IMMEDIATELY once the card is played.
Holographic Projection is supposed to turn off at the end of a player's turn. Holographic Projection did not turn off and allowed the player to meet the win conditions with Holographic Projection.
faq.looneylabs.com/fluxx-games/star-fluxx#1343 • What is your browser?
Google Chrome v95
-
• Please explain your suggestion precisely and concisely so that it's as easy as possible to understand what you mean.
The rules of Brain Transference is that the player's turn ends IMMEDIATELY once the card is played.
Holographic Projection is supposed to turn off at the end of a player's turn. Holographic Projection did not turn off and allowed the player to meet the win conditions with Holographic Projection.
faq.looneylabs.com/fluxx-games/star-fluxx#1343 • What is your browser?
Google Chrome v95
-
• What was displayed on the screen when you were blocked (Blank screen? Part of the game interface? Error message?)
The rules of Brain Transference is that the player's turn ends IMMEDIATELY once the card is played.
Holographic Projection is supposed to turn off at the end of a player's turn. Holographic Projection did not turn off and allowed the player to meet the win conditions with Holographic Projection.
faq.looneylabs.com/fluxx-games/star-fluxx#1343 • What is your browser?
Google Chrome v95
-
• Which part of the rules was not respected by the BGA adaptation
The rules of Brain Transference is that the player's turn ends IMMEDIATELY once the card is played.
Holographic Projection is supposed to turn off at the end of a player's turn. Holographic Projection did not turn off and allowed the player to meet the win conditions with Holographic Projection.
faq.looneylabs.com/fluxx-games/star-fluxx#1343 -
• Is the rules violation visible on game replay? If yes, at which move number?
Move 57
• What is your browser?
Google Chrome v95
-
• Which was the game action you wanted to do?
The rules of Brain Transference is that the player's turn ends IMMEDIATELY once the card is played.
Holographic Projection is supposed to turn off at the end of a player's turn. Holographic Projection did not turn off and allowed the player to meet the win conditions with Holographic Projection.
faq.looneylabs.com/fluxx-games/star-fluxx#1343 -
• What do you try to do to trigger this game action?
Move 57
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• What happened when you try to do this (error message, game status bar message, ...)?
• What is your browser?
Google Chrome v95
-
• At which step of the game did the problem occurs (what was the current game instruction)?
The rules of Brain Transference is that the player's turn ends IMMEDIATELY once the card is played.
Holographic Projection is supposed to turn off at the end of a player's turn. Holographic Projection did not turn off and allowed the player to meet the win conditions with Holographic Projection.
faq.looneylabs.com/fluxx-games/star-fluxx#1343 -
• What happened when you try to do a game action (error message, game status bar message, ...)?
Move 57
• What is your browser?
Google Chrome v95
-
• Please describe the display issue. If you have a screenshot of this bug (good practice), you can use a picture hosting service of your choice (snipboard.io for example) to upload it and copy/paste the link here.
The rules of Brain Transference is that the player's turn ends IMMEDIATELY once the card is played.
Holographic Projection is supposed to turn off at the end of a player's turn. Holographic Projection did not turn off and allowed the player to meet the win conditions with Holographic Projection.
faq.looneylabs.com/fluxx-games/star-fluxx#1343 • What is your browser?
Google Chrome v95
-
• Please copy/paste the text displayed in English instead of your language. If you have a screenshot of this bug (good practice), you can use a picture hosting service of your choice (snipboard.io for example) to upload it and copy/paste the link here. Is this text available in the translation system? If yes, has it been translated for more than 24 hours?
The rules of Brain Transference is that the player's turn ends IMMEDIATELY once the card is played.
Holographic Projection is supposed to turn off at the end of a player's turn. Holographic Projection did not turn off and allowed the player to meet the win conditions with Holographic Projection.
faq.looneylabs.com/fluxx-games/star-fluxx#1343 • What is your browser?
Google Chrome v95
-
• Please explain your suggestion precisely and concisely so that it's as easy as possible to understand what you mean.
The rules of Brain Transference is that the player's turn ends IMMEDIATELY once the card is played.
Holographic Projection is supposed to turn off at the end of a player's turn. Holographic Projection did not turn off and allowed the player to meet the win conditions with Holographic Projection.
faq.looneylabs.com/fluxx-games/star-fluxx#1343 • What is your browser?
Google Chrome v95
Report history
Like your faq link shows, HP turns off together with the Keeper Limit.
But consider the case where you just placed the 2nd keeper for some goal as your last turn play, with Keeper Limit 1 in effect: you still win, before you have to apply the Keeper Limit 1 to discard 1 of your 2 keepers.
Nevertheless there is still some bug here, because the holographed keeper (Scientist) had Brain Parasites attached so that should have been holographed together and prevented the win.
I will check that further.
For tracking purposes, I am going to report this as "notabug", because the title and original bug report was actually using an incorrect statement.
Thanks for your extensive play testing :)
They referred me to this document:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17H2piG85VTNPMDCfkr2TChO6SK6bYBcTHGZRiAyJ9rA/edit?usp=sharing
Email from Looney Labs:
"So let's see here...
Player A's turn: Places a new goal - "My time machine works!"
[I don't know this offhand from the title alone, but from your example, it apparently requires the Scientist and the Time Traveler]
Player A has Scientist in play.
Player B has Time Traveller and Holographic Projector.
But it's not Player B's turn, so the Holographic Projector is not doing anything. Right.
Player A plays Brain Transference.
Everyone changes seats, and as soon as that happens, Player A is jumped to the end-of-turn-events which includes the Holographic Projector turning off. So it's no longer Player A's turn, so the Holographic Projector is off for them.
I guess the gist of this question is whether there is some sort of teeny weeny blink of an eye where Player A might win because the Holographic Projector is "in the process of turning off." Which, when I put it that way makes it clear to me that that's some serious intention-bending.
*I think I will tweak the wording so that it says "The Holographic Projector is now off" rather than "The Holographic Projector turns off."
The end-of-turn events mean, in the most general sense, that it's the end of Player A's turn, and, as such, they can't use the Holographic Projector anymore.
Player A now has Time Traveller and Holographic Projector and Player B has Scientist.
But it is now the next person's turn, so Player A does not win with this Goal at this time.
Hope that clears things up! Definitely a tricky one!
Thanks for playing our games!
Alison Frane
Head Factotum
Question Answerer 1st Class
Customer & Sales Support
(pronouns: she/her)
LOONEY LABS
looneylabs.com/
301-441-1019, Fax: 301-441-4871
4920 Niagara Rd, Suite 405
College Park, MD 20740"
I will reopen this for now, and start a new communication thread with Andy Looney and Alison to explain why I believe this answer is incomplete or incorrect, and come back here with the final conclusion.
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OK, I’ll get right to the point: Yes, your interpretation & implementation is correct. The win is legit! It’s a feature not a bug!
Now let’s dive into it. On the one hand, it does seem like the phrase “your turn ends immediately” should mean that the Holographic Projector also stops working immediately and that victory would be denied. But I think the case can be made — as indeed you did — that what this really means is that you don’t get any more Plays, and must immediately do all the things that must be done when your turn is over (such as complying with limits, moving the Cute Fuzzy Alien, etc) and that the Projector keeps working until this “shutdown phase” is complete, even if the only thing happening in that time-slice is the check for victory.
But all of that is overlooking other text on the card, which explicitly conveys retroactivity: “You take over that other player’s entire position in the game, as if you were in that position all along.”
Case closed. You win!
— Andy
Full case description:
I have received a bug report for BGA Star Fluxx, that I had initially rejected as "Not a bug" because in my opinion it was correct and intended behavior.
But the bug reporter had also posted the question directly to Looney Labs support, and received a different answer from Alison.
After reading the answer that Alison provided, I still respectfully disagree so I hope we can dive deeper into it and get to a common consensus :)
Sorry for the wall of text following below, but I will try to explain everything in detail.
This is the link to the bug report with discussions on BGA: #53076: "Holographic Projection didn't Turn Off at end of Turn" • Board Game Arena
At the bottom of this mail, I have also copied the extract from the answer that Alison provided.
Quick summary of the situation:
- player A starts turn, with Play 2 rule
- player A puts goal "My time machine works!" (Scientist + Time Traveler), and already has Scientist
- player B has the Time Traveler and Holographic Projector, but it is not their turn, so they don't win
- player A plays Brain Transference, so they now have the TT + HP and opponent has Scientist
- current BGA implementation has immediately granted victory to player A
Bug reporter claims that this shouldn't happen because "Brain Transference" states "Your turn ends immediately".
They use this Fluxx FAQ entry Star Fluxx FAQ | Looney Labs FAQ and the well-known link to the "Order of events in a Fluxx turn" spreadsheet to claim that the HP should be turned off immediately at the end of turn (simultaneous with Limits), so it can't be used for victory - and Alison seems to confirm this.
But I don't believe this is correct, and actually imho the fact that the HP is turned off at the end of turn is even irrelevant to the case.
Let me explain my reasoning, and hopefully you can agree or explain in detail where I am taking a wrong turn:
- what the "Order of events in a Fluxx turn" does *not* include, is when exactly victory conditions are to be checked
- but all Fluxx rules state "game continues until someone meets the conditions of the current goal, that players wins instantly"
- so in my understanding (and hence also in the BGA implementation), that means immediately after any card has been played, victory conditions are checked
- more precise, a full player turn will be:
draw cards
Check victory conditions (for 10 cards in hand)
as long as available plays (from Play Rule) or unused Free Rules / Free Actions
Play a card from hand, or play a Free Rule or Free Action
Check victory conditions
Check if more available plays (Play Rule) or unused Free Rules / Free Actions
if yes => continue playing
if no => go to end-of-turn events
end-of-turn events (simultaneous)
comply with hand and keeper limits
Holographic Projector turns off
In my opinion, that means that immediately after Brain Transference has been played, victory conditions are first checked and give an instant win - because at that point the player is still active.
To me, "Your turn ends immediately" actually only refers to the fact that all outstanding Play actions (from Play Rules or Free Rules / Free Actions) are lost and cannot be used anymore
- so it forces the "Check if more available plays" to say "no".
The answer from Alison focuses on the fact that HP is off at end-of-turn.
But that seems to imply that the victory condition should only be checked here *after* the end-of-turn events.
That seems very weird to me and could even cause other strange effects and contradictions.
Because with that same reasoning, please look at this situation:
- any current goal needs Keeper X + Y, and the current Rules are "Play 1", "Keeper Limit 1", and no Free Rules or Free actions are available at all
- player A is active, and already has Keeper X
- player A plays Keeper Y from hand, as their one-and-only available play: so their turn is over and we go to the end-of-turn events
- during end-of-turn events, player A has to comply with the Keeper Limit, meaning they must discard Keeper X or Y
- so they don't win ???
Certainly we can at least agree that the above is not correct, and that even though player A's turn is over, there is always a victory condition check *before* the end-of-turn events after the card played?
So why would the same not apply for the original bug report situation?
Or another case, suppose there existed a special "Steal a Keeper - Full Stop" action card like "Steal a Keeper" but with the added "Your turn ends immediately" phrase.
(sorry, I can't come up with another good example using any of the existing cards that use "Your turn ends immediately")
- any current goal needs Keeper X + Y, and Keeper Limit 1 rule active
- player A has Keeper X on the table, player B has Keeper Y
- player A plays " Steal a Keeper - Full Stop" to steal Keeper Y
- would you rule that player A wins with Keeper X + Y, or do they first need to discard for Keeper Limit 1 during end-of-turn events before victory is checked?
I am sure there is a lot to check and discuss here, so please have a look and let me know what you think!
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- If you have a screenshot of this bug (good practice), you can use a picture hosting service of your choice (snipboard.io for example) to upload it and copy/paste the link here.
